This post isn’t just about MBAs (master of business administration), it’s about higher education in general. Some folks don’t have access to it; it’s expensive, exclusive and the American system isn’t built for everyone to have the opportunity. It’s my hope that after this post, the attitude around what a degree means changes in relation to one’s success, specifically for those who don’t have one…because I don’t think anyone needs a MBA (or any degree) if they have hustle.
I used to think that the more advanced the degree, the better job, and naturally, the better the pay. The reason my attitude has changed is because over the past few years, many of my colleagues have had MBA’s…and I don’t have one. So not only do I play at the same park, I’ve done so without the same credential.
The Reality
Before I get too deep into this subject, I want to make it clear that for certain technical and industry-specific fields, degrees matter. You can’t become a lawyer without going to law school. You can’t become a physician without going to medical school. There’s no way around this reality. Most would agree that there should be strict regulations and educational requirements for highly complex and sensitive industries. But in my eyes, everything else is wide open for the rest of us.
The Black Belt Concept
Anyone can get a black belt if they dedicate themselves to doing so (I’m not insinuating that it’s easy…just saying that it’s not out of reach.) A person who reaches such a milestone will certainly know how to throw a perfect punch – at the air, and a perfect kick – at the air…but in the heat of the moment, they may not have what it takes to truly defend themselves outside the Dojo.
Let’s apply the black belt to a college degree. Most people, given the opportunity, have the intellectual ability to get a college degree. It’s not THAT hard. And just because a person has a degree, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll be good at any job. I took a number of speech classes in college (hated them by the way), got good grades, but I left college being pretty bad at public speaking. My grades said I was excellent, but my practical skills proved the opposite. Doing it in the real world is what helped me develop and get better at it.
Just because someone has a black belt doesn’t mean they’re ready for battle. It means that they have a high theoretical understanding of their discipline. You can learn all about swords, understand the dynamics of a sword fight, and have perfect form. That doesn’t mean you’re ready to sword fight.
Organizations are starting to view candidates in this light. This is part of the reason why GPA’s don’t matter as much as it did in years past. They want people who can drive results; not people who can recite business definitions. I got A’s in each speech class that I took – and I was pretty bad at the time. If organizations looked at my A, they would think I was a great public speaker…the fact is, there’s no accurate correlation [generally speaking] between grades and real life ability. Same thing goes for degrees.
Hustle is My MBA
I have absolutely no plan to go back to college to get an advanced degree. Why? Well because I KNOW that it would have minimal impact on me professionally, as it does for most that do so. I’m not trying to down play the major accomplishment – just saying that in the reality of my world – it wouldn’t do much to serve me.
My colleagues that have a MBA’s did receive some positive impact on their career. Which is great. I’ve done the same – without the financial burden (MBA = avg. $80k) or time investment (avg. 2-3 years).Their MBAs helped get them to the position their in…I used another method to get to the same position.
The Alternative
I’ve educated myself by being present and aware; by extending my learning in areas that directly contribute to my ability to do my job. I’ve stepped out of my comfort zone and taken on projects that have expanded my business intelligence. I’ve maximized on-the-job training. I take complete ownership of my role and responsibilities.
This approach has helped me become the standard in positions that I’ve taken. When you’re the standard, you become the point that others are judged from. It’s a position sure to help progress your career over what any degree can do – in my experience.
If you feel disadvantaged because you can’t fill up the Education part of your resume – don’t fear. Showcase your skill sets, accomplishments and willingness to self-educate outside of traditional study. Be willing to work harder than everyone else, which will naturally place you on the stage of being the standard. Before you know it, you’ll be working in the same peer group as those who pay thousands of dollars each month to cover student loan payments that they wish they would have done without.
I’d love to assist anyone, especially those without a college degree, put together a Grade-A resume.
I’m an Advocate of Education
From where this post has gone, you might think that I was against education. But in reality, I’m the biggest advocate of education that I know. I just try not to get caught up in academia and the prestige behind where he or she got a degree (only because it really doesn’t matter and most people don’t care).
A few months ago in a post called Street Smarts Reigns Supreme, I shared that schools such as Yale and MIT offer free online courses open to the public. I actually take courses offered by these institutions based on subjects that I have interests in and that will help me be better at my job.
I have a lot of respect for those who have made the commitment to complete college; under graduate and graduate level. I have a friend who has his PhD and I think it’s the coolest thing in the world. But also I have a great deal of respect for those who didn’t have the opportunity to go to college – because I think they can make just as big of a splash as the next person.
Conclusion
I have a bachelor’s degree. Having it served a good purpose at one point in my career. That purpose being that it satisfied a requirement to get a certain level of job when I graduated. That’s it. 75% (maybe more) of the courses that I took were pointless in the scheme of my life today. Who in the world needs a geology class if they don’t care one lick about rocks (I hated that classes). How in the world can you make a Chinese Dynasty class a prerequisite, but fail to teach young adults how to manage money? The system seems a little twisted. It’s getting a little too expensive…and frankly, having a degree is more of a formality than a means for preparation.
For those of you who don’t or didn’t have the opportunity to go to college – I think you’ll be okay if you’re willing to hustle. But for those who aren’t so willing to work hard, college degree or not, I’m not sure if higher ed will do a thing for you. Just because a person has a degree doesn’t mean that life’s any easier…hard work is the requirement under all job descriptions.
To those with a college degree, don’t think you’re “black belt” is all that you need if you want to be successful…it’s not enough. Before my attitude changed, I was stuck in regular run-of-the-mill jobs that paid average wages and it sucked my energy dry.
Bottom line, college degree or not – you own your results…not some piece of paper, no abbreviations or letters after your name, not the state of the economy and surely not any of your excuses. If you want to win – then go do something about it…and win.
I’m not advocating that anyone should pass on the opportunity to go to college. If you can go – don’t let the opportunity pass you by. But if you can’t…you know what to do.
DISCUSSION
I said a lot here and didn’t cover the bulk of my thoughts. College seems like it’s a racket now days; all about hiking up the costs but not truly preparing young adults for the real world. What are your thoughts on this? If you have an MBA – do you think it gives you an edge over high achievers? And finally, share anything you’d like on this subject that may offer additional value to the community. -Jk
{ 153 comments… read them below or add one }
JK,
I have so much to say about this subject it’s ridiculous. I consider myself overeducated with two degrees and now an eternal student of the SKool of Life. I actually have an MBA and when people ask me if they should get one I usually say no. These days because of technology and the amount of information at your finger tips we can learn anything we’re interested in. I agree that you can’t become a lawyer or doctor. But you’ll be either terrified or delighted to learn that even med schools offer their curriculum via podcasts now. My sister tells me she has friends in her med school who listen to all their lectures via podcast. I’m not sure how I feel about that. But as far as other professions go, I think you can get a much more well rounded education by exploring areas that you’re truly interested in. When we stick to the classroom and its required reading, we’re really limiting what we’re truly capable of. I think we have an opportunity to be more well rounded than at anytime in history because the amount of information at our fingertips. You can get a world class education without paying for it.
Srinivas recently posted..There Will Be Days
I couldn’t agree more, Srini!
Marlee recently posted..Why Faith, Politics, and Sex are great for Business, and Other Assumptions You Should Question
Srini,
With so much at our finger tips, and with the current education bubble draining students and putting them in such a bad position in the future (debt), I think that going to college, for the sake of going to college is a bad move. At one time I thought that the experience alone was worth it..but that was a few 100% costs increases ago. Now, I think kids need to have a better idea of the direction they want to go in. Taking a year between high school used to be a no-no in my eyes…but no longer.
You said…
“I actually have an MBA and when people ask me if they should get one I usually say no.”
Had a conversation at dinner last night with a friend who is in his last year of law school. He said the same thing.
I was curious to get your input because I was aware that you had an MBA. Thanks for sharing man.
PEACE
This is one of those subjects that I talk rarely about on my blog JK, but is one of huge passion and interest to me. Over the past 3 years, since the economy tanked, I’ve seen so many people do the MBA thing. Some reasons have been quite legit, but many others have been based on one motive– FEAR. They’re simply delaying the inevitable, that is, actually applying the principles they’ve ‘learned’.
Personally, I did well in college. But has anyone ever asked me my GPA? Nope. Before someone writes me a check, do they ask what I’ve studied? Nope. In fact, I think we’re moving to a point where more and more companies will not base hiring decisions on education background at all— as their only focus will be actual results—tangible stuff that says ‘yeah, this person is for real’.
As Mark Twain said, “Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.”
Such a wise statement, and so true. Schooling has now become a crutch for many people, but the time will come when all of us have to sink or swim….so I say let’s go ahead and jump in the deep end.
Awesome read my man, happy Friday.
Marcus
Marcus Sheridan-The Sales Lion recently posted..To Life and Laughter…A Personal Video from The Sales Lion
Buddy you are so right. MBA programs and universities have never been busier since the economy tanked.
It always amazes me that some dudes who have spent their whole life in academia can come out and teach classes like entrepreneurship, marketing for small business, etc… They have never done it in the real world, yet they teach it.
Nobody cares what we studied in college, what our GPA was or if we made the Dean list. They only look at the value we bring them. The letters at the end of our name mean nothing. UNless of course you want to stay in academia and become a professor.
I could go on and on with this subject. I have clients who are successful entrepreneurs but have no degree and feel they need these two letters after their name. With the money they spend on these classes they could get the more one on one tutors, coaches to teach them stuff to improve their life and business.
john Falchetto recently posted..Growing a multinational, LinkedIn and inbound marketing strategy with Jorgen Sundberg
Hey John,
Funny how the economy tanks; education costs rise, SIGNIFICANTLY; and enrollment in MBA programs soar. I really don’t get how that phenomenon has occurred. I’m sure that marketing efforts form adult universities pushing the message of security behind education has played a part. They touched a very sensitive subject. But when I hear it – I chuckle. Not because I’m smarter than anyone else – but because I’ve played enough in the game to know that an MBA doesn’t make a employee any stronger or better at their job.
School seems to be more of a commodity than preparation for professional growth.
That’s so true. It’s not knowing what to do next and the fear of facing the real world. In school, it’s safe and you have your schedule and professors tell you what to do. But like you said, it’s a crutch. If they don’t really do something with that MBA afterwards they’re going to be dreading that student debt even more.
Benny recently posted..My First Ebook: Learn the One Sentence that Changed My Life
Hey Benny,
Here’s the thing – after school – there’s not much that a MBA provides them. Listing having an MBA on a resume doesn’t come with much prestige these days because so many people have them. And organizations are catching on to the fact that just because person has a degree doesn’t mean that they are the best candidate for a job.
I know my degree gives me a little pull. Or at least it did. But I have on my side that [in my opinion] is stronger than MBA is human references and documented results. Understanding how to put the two in harmony is more advantageous than an MBA.
Have a good week man!
Great comment Marcus. Couldn’t agree more and love that quote form Mark Twain. Thanks.
Al
I agree with mark Twain as well:)
Before leaving my last job, I was my only peer without an MBA. Actually, there were two others who didn’t have them, but they were spending every night in classes, in process of achieving their MBA. For them it’s a safety net. But in reality – they are as dispensable as the next person….no one’s truly safe in any line of work.
One guy told me straight up – if I could just pay double and not have to do the work or the study for my MBA…then I would.
That’s a poor attitude. It’s terrible reasoning. These MBA’s cost a lot…not only the cash..but the opportunity costs and time commitment. All that and it does very little for ones career (from my experience of others).
That Mark Twain Quote was on point!
PEACE
JK, I have an MBA (and a third-degree black belt) and I can tell you … You’re Right! The MBA is in fact a watered down version of an undergrad business degree. The benefits of an MBA are only in the networking … if you really want to learn business then you must work in business. You must expose yourself to the hustle. Street smarts trump schooling most of the time. 100% accurate.
MBAs, when they get out of school, know just about nothing. They think they’re CEO material, but they’re barely good enough to be a mail clerk. Maybe they can do powerpoint or a few spreadsheet, but they can’t lead or make real-world decisions. It’s only when they get that exposure do they become capable (maybe).
To simulate an MBA, assuming you have some business background, you need to master networking. To do that, just make excuses to meet with higher and higher levels of whatever organization you’re in. Also, join other organizations. There are probably high level people there you can become friends with. In my Aikido club we have a president of a large engineering company that designs offshore drilling rigs. I have been to potluck parties at his house, as well as gotten career advice.
Anyway, I don’t want to monopolize your comment space, but I reiterate: You’re 100% right.
Alex | Perfecting Dad recently posted..How to Deal With Lying Kids
Alex,
How’s it going! From the flow of your comment I can tell that you have some experience around this area! You made some great points that really grabbed my attention:
“… if you really want to learn business then you must work in business. You must expose yourself to the hustle. Street smarts trump schooling most of the time. 100% accurate.”
“To simulate an MBA, assuming you have some business background, you need to master networking.”
Networking is huge. Many of my MBA co-workers swear that they have the ultimate networking circle because of their MBA. And you know what – I bet it’s pretty strong. But networking is one of those things that we all have access to. And frankly, some are better at it than others (because of natural personality).
Networking and working hard has been everything for me. Working hard isn’t enough if you don’t have the right eyeballs on you.
Great points made Alex. As always I appreciate your comment!
Clearly, this is going to be a hot topic. You nailed it, JK. I touched on this issue in my last post, because for a long time I felt like not having a “degree” in an area that I wanted to work in meant I wasn’t qualified to work in it. That couldn’t be farther from the truth.
I think a lot of people end up getting secondary degrees because they are deferring the dreams of the their heart – I did. They feel like if they just get more “schooling” everything else will fall into place. It’s just not so. I feel very strongly that formalized education is much more about the business of education than it is about learning.
If you have a public library card, a strong network, great mentors, and HUSTLE – you’ve got all you need to get ahead.
Marlee recently posted..Why Faith, Politics, and Sex are great for Business, and Other Assumptions You Should Question
Marlee – if I only had your mind I would have somehow worked a piece of this into the title of this post:
“I feel very strongly that formalized education is much more about the business of education than it is about learning.”
Business of education, not learning. That’s what frustrates me. Let me be honest real quick….
I went to college and up until my last year, I honestly thought that companies came to schools and recruited all the graduates. I thought this at 20 years old. Mid way through my first semester of my last year, I started to ask around and people thought I had lost my mind. I don’t know why I thought that but I did. When I learned differently – I started grinding and found a pretty decent job that I started a couple weeks after graduation.
Here’s the point. Everybody is not, or at least not willing to be a go-getter. So you have these kids who spend all this money in college and when they get out – they can’t even get a job. They don’t know how to write a resume, they don’t know what types of salary expectations they should have…but they had to take that Spanish class (mandatory) or that calculus class (mandatory).
I put some of it on the kids and the parents…but since they paid tens of thousands of dollars…I put some on the education system as well.
I have nothing against foreign language or math. But if you’re going to make people take these classes…at least make sure when these kids graduate they have some skills to make a living.
Let me stop…I can go on forever!
Have a good week.
PEACE
I don’t see why you can’t have the best of both worlds. I do not regret my MBA, and recommend people go after one if they -
1. Get an MBA for the right Reasons: I went to B-school because I had never taken a business class in undergrad. I wanted to learn quickly the fundamentals and be exposed to proven business concepts. I also worked hard to build relationships in the business school, engineering school, and law school. If you’re going to just get a check in the box for company advancement – that’s a waist in my opinion.
2. Find a way to get your MBA for a lower cost – I went to UT and as a combat vet I was 100% covered under the Hazelwood Act. Cornell University gives a full rise to 30 MBAs for leadership (Park Award I believe). There are options out there to get an MBA paid for by your company. Do not go into dept you can’t manage – that’s just foolish.
3. Go into each class with your objective in mind – take what YOU need out of it. When I took my general strategy course and read Porter’s Competitive Strategy, I read that with starting a business in mind. 90% of the people in my class did not read it/simply skimmed it as they thought it was 30 years old and boring. I read it 3 times and re-rewrote it because the concepts w to me were mind-blowing if a business were to apply them. You need to have the courage to grab what you need out of the class and adapt it to your needs – most profs are willing to help you here if you ask. 99% of people never ask.
4. Nurture the right relationships – When I show up in Austin, I have 50+ couches I can crash on. I stay in touch with the 5 profs who really influenced/impressed me, 3 of which have helped me grow my business in the last 2 years. One has even integrated me into UT’s Venture investment competition (as a judge) and the friends I’ve made there are world class smart business people.
Hustle is great – but I can hustle around in a circle and not get anywhere. By mixing hustle and a solid business education – and throwing arrogance out the window – I feel an MBA is a good choice for many. Not all, but many.
Antonio,
Hello sir! You laid down the law on what one should focus on if they do take the route of getting an MBA. I’m sure it will be of value to some. And I wish…WISH- that all the people who now struggle to make ends meet because they have lofty student loan payments could have gotten some consulting from you and me, prior to going to grad school. I think both of our philosophies could help shift some perspective on this subject to some.
And I think the best of both wrongs is the best situation – always. But the reality, most people don’t have your attitude, mission or purpose when they get an MBA. Most people do so as a check in the box and as a sign for “hope”.
As I shared, I don’t have an MBA and I’m at no disadvantage whatsoever.
I have to respond to your comment re: hustle: “Hustle is great – but I can hustle around in a circle and not get anywhere.”
That’s not hustling in book…no sir. I respect your definition completely – but it doesn’t match mine at all. Never is hustling, in my book, not getting anywhere. Hustling, in my book, is getting to where you need to go.
Great comment…one that I’m very appreciative for. Thank you!
Jk, top observation Sir! It is neccessary in some fields to earn the required foundations or excel at a demanded high level but what I take from your ‘huscle’ (my term for the muscle your hustle posts create in my motivations) is that the ‘degree’ of success we can attain is directly proportionate to the effort, tenacity, and sheer hard work we have to put in to get there. Rome wasn’t built in a day chiefy because it’s so awesome it took the proper time to be constructed. For Rome read dreams, goals, and aspirations. If you want to achieve be a human MBA – Mentally Believing in Ambition and pushing to be head of the top class! An A grade is won by an A-mazing human being.
John Sherry recently posted..How To Start A New Life – Part 1
Hi John – I love your iteration of hustle into ‘huscle’…That’s great!
Absolute great point you made:
” …is that the ‘degree’ of success we can attain is directly proportionate to the effort, tenacity, and sheer hard work we have to put in to get there.”
No matter the degree, without the foundation, which means the most, the degree is only a piece of paper.
Great comment John!
Ha, who says college was not hard; obviously you weren’t as big of knucklehead as I was. My saving grace and motivation was I paid my own way. I HAD to pay attention in class; I didn’t have the money for any ‘do-overs’.
BTW – I’m not a doctor, but I do play one on TV……….
I am a huge proponent of higher education, but also making it available, affordable and accessible. Education plays a huge role in economic development or lack thereof.
My biggest hang up about education is for the most part it is too traditional, it really doesn’t prepare you for real life. The biggest thing I learned was how to be more social which actually did prepare me for my payin’ gig.
Unfortunately, you might not even get in that door if you don’t have the proper credentials even if it is a bad fit for the person who does.
One of the big thing a degree shows is the ability to stick to something and get it done for whatever that’s worth.
Thanks for sharing this JK, hope all is well for my tan brother from another mother.
Bill Dorman recently posted..Life as a splendid torch
Hey Bill! I use the same “justification” for what a degree is really good for…showing that you’ve seen through a major commitment. Honestly, I think the same can be said about someone that uses their time responsibly by working and developing on the job.
Trust me, I wouldn’t take back getting my degree. I took school very seriously and appreciate that I was able to go…but, today – it plays very little into my accomplishments professionally.
Your much tanner brother is doing well..and he must be a cool cat cause he’s speaking in 3rd person for some strange reason??? LOL.
PEACE
Having spent several years as a University professor and having received my PhD at 26, oddly I agree with the crux of his statements. I want to be clear, I do not think that college is a complete waste of time, but I do think that the cost-benefit ratio just isn’t there. The debt that students will absorb against the actual “amount that they learn”, just does not make financial sense. When I would poll my students by a show of hands and ask the question “how many of you would walk out of this classroom right now and never come back if someone offered you a $100,000/yr job?” out of 110, all but 2 would say they would walk out. Most are not there for the “learning” aspect, but are there to improve their job prospects. But what specifically about university education improves a person’s ability to be a better worker? Writing? Mathematics? Creative thinking? Okay, create a program where those specific job skills categories are addressed, and save these young people and their parents the $20,000 – 50,000 a year. A program that allows students to job shadow dozens of career options, and to learn basic job skills would be much cheaper and much more efficient.
This post is so good. Thank you, JK, and everyone for commenting. Superb.
I agree with pretty much all the sentiments shared above, but anonymous insider really touches on a few things very dear to me. For starters, I went to a for-profit, private university. Long story short, I’ll be making a US$500-$700 monthly payment to the loan sharks at Sallie Mae until I am 65. In this way, going to college was the most damning financial decision I’ve ever made. Serious, life-long consequences.
On the other hand, I work for a private, for-profit (different) in knowledge management and it’s proven to be one of the most rewarding career moves I’ve ever made. I’m still not in a position to really “get ahead,” financially, more a function of being able to relatively comfortably handle my student loan situation than anything else. Being able to practice work-life-parallel these last couple years has really made a big difference in my world.
The clincher, for me, has been the way these forces have combined to impact my side hustle, which is currently evolving into such a program Mr. Anonymous suggests in closing. The “jobby” has grown into an international partnership (Netherlands, Canada, USA), and we’re currently developing just such a program. I don’t think I’ve ever been more excited about a project in all my life.
There is infinite human potential. Once we step away from the posturing and politics, and simply be honest with ourselves and each other, the sky’s the limit.
Things are looking up.
Brian Driggs recently posted..3 Reasons Why livefyre Irritates Me
Hey Brian,
Nice to see you! It’s been a while!
I love how you ended “Things are looking up.” That’s always the push right – for progression.
Sounds like the project you’re involved with is one that’s going to hopefully make some huge changes. Thanks for doing your part!
Thanks for sharing your comment. Very great example of the roller coaster ride of a journey that comes with all things…including education. I ask you this…
If you could go back and o it again, would you? shcool thing all over again.
No worries, JK. I’m always around. Been enjoying the reads in my inbox most of the time, ya know? “Things are looking up” is just something I try to keep at the front of my mind. WHY are things looking up? Probably because I keep pressing on, regardless.
As for going back to school if I could have done it all over again, no, I would definitely not. I am where I am today not because I went to college, but because I spent the last decade plus online, interacting with like-minded individuals, learning, experimenting, and reflecting.
We are sold higher ed as merely a stepping stone to mo’ money – not the foundations of lifelong learning and personal fulfillment. Like your Hustler’s MBA, passion + initiative = the standard.
Here’s to setting the standard, sir.
Brian Driggs recently posted..Behind the Firewall: Organizational Development
Hey Brian
You made a great point that we’re SOLD higher ed merely as a stepping stone to mo’ money…not for a foundation of life-long learning. And that’s part of my point here. And the fact is – that the mo’ money isn’t often the reality either!
And I have an MBA anyway…A HMBA!
Take care my friend!
Man oh man. You just laid it down my friend. I won’t even spend much time commenting on this because you speak from a place much closer than most – being a professor. You’ve lived the education life from both angles…all three angles: student, professor and professional.
Thanks for dropping by man. We still on for next month? Let’s connect this week.
I agree with you, JK. I never went to college because I simply didn’t see any value. If I want to learn something, just give me the book, I don’t need to pay thousands of dollars to have someone stand up and talk about the book… I can just read it.
And, if you’re trying to impress someone (i.e. employer) with a piece of paper that certifies you have spend the last 4 years partying and coloring in scantron bubbles… do you really want to impress that person?
I value knowledge, understanding, and practical insight more than anyone. But I would almost rather work with someone who DOESN’T have a degree – they haven’t been brainwashed by the system
Andrew Olson recently posted..Ditching Your Values
Wow Andrew – I can tell from your comment that you have a very definite view on the education system. I appreciate your passion.
And, as you can probably tell from this post – I have some passion around this subject too. I’ve been to college. And I can speak firsthand from my experience that it’s over-hyped and under delivers in the area of true preparation. And it’s far too expensive!
Thanks for leaving such a strong comment.
Take care
Hey JK, Thanks for the reply. Ah, I didn’t mean it to be too dramatic. I try not to have views that are too definite.
The strange thing is, I actually love education and our educational system. I would like to go to school, getting degree after degree on all kinds of bizarre subjects, but only for the enjoyment of the experience itself. I wouldn’t find much practical value in the education. That, I think, can best be learned through experience and self education.
Andrew Olson recently posted..Ditching Your Values
You weren’t too dramatic at all. I loved how you spoke from the heart. When I read it I could feel the conviction!
I’m like you. I love learning new stuff and spend soooo much time researching and learning things that interest me. In school, being forced to take classes that I had no interest in killed me. Drained me.
Thanks for your reply man.
PEACE
Jk, awesome post as usual bro! I loved it so much I shared it on Facebook!
Like many of the other guys that have commented so far, I have a great deal to talk about when it comes topic. I spent three years of by life getting a bachelor degree in Economics and Politics. What a waste of time. The recession kicked in whilst I was still at Uni. Big deal to economists right? Well not to my lecturers! This is a typical example of how theoretical University is. The only thing that I really got from Uni was meeting loads of people who have become good friends and the whole aspect of living independently.
Other than the social aspects, I see Uni as a waste of time for most subjects. Like you said, the specialist subjects like law and medicine NEED proper degree training. The other thing is that so many people get degrees today that they have lost their value. It’s no longer impressive to possess a degree. But that’s not the point. The point is that degrees do nothing to do prepare you for “real life” once you finish.
My generation have been pushed into education by our parents, because, in their minds, degrees still hold an immense amount of value. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Things will change because (most) degrees are now seen to have much less value than before.
Here in the UK, yearly tuition fees for undergraduates are going up from £3000 a year to £9000 a year. This should make people think harder about whether or not they want to go to University, what they want to study and what they want to do with their lives.
Universities need to start preparing people for jobs, not exams! More practice and less theory! More work experience and less textbooks!
You’re right as always bro – HUSTLE over formal education!
I know these points are strong but it’s what I’ve witnessed and experienced first hand.
Robert recently posted..A month off…
Robert – great comment man. I’m saying this a lot in my replies…but I can tell that you feel very strongly about this subject.
It’s a racket. The system is not effective for both parties. For the education system, it works – they continue to raise tuition costs and attendance keeps rising with it. But, for the students – they get the bricks at the end…but when they thought they were getting the golden egg.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your point of view on this. A strong point of view at that. As you know, there’s no need to hold back here…I didn’t!
PEACE – Let’s jump on GChat tomorrow.
Dude, awesome post. And I love Srini’s response as well.
This whole conversation reminds me of my own struggle with formal education. All my life, I’d fallen asleep in classes and was never engaged in school. I thought this meant that I hated learning. That I didn’t like being educated.
This couldn’t be further from the truth. Now I know that learning is the love of my life. It’s my passion. My only mistake was thinking that formal education was the ONLY education. Bit it’s only one of many paths.
And some people thrive on alternative paths. In fact, I think MOST people would thrive on alternative paths…if they only had the balls to try em for themselves.
Jaemin. Is that pronounced Jay-men? If so, my brother (Jamon) basically has the same name as you!
I think you touched on a great point: “And some people thrive on alternative paths. In fact, I think MOST people would thrive on alternative paths…if they only had the balls to try em for themselves.”
Because of traditions, most people, I assume, won’t reach this understanding. I think people get caught up in the prestige of going to this or that school.
I’m glad you’ve found your passion in learning. Thanks for sharing your insight on this subject man. Much appreciated.
Haha yup, it’s pronounced the exact same way! I actually always tell people online (when they can’t hear me pronounce the name) that it sounds like Damon with a J. I never actually knew that name existed out there lol.
And yeah, I think you’re 100% right on the whole prestige thing. If you can get the same information from a book or real-world experience, but without the nods of approval from your peers…I think there’s a whole boatload of people who’d be turned off by that.
I mean, let’s be honest, that’s probably the real reason a lot of these people want to become businessmen for in the first place. To win the approval of others.
Jaemin – what’s up!
Good point about seeking approval. And that’s ANOTHER HUGE SUBJECT. If you ever write that post on “people wanting to gain approval” let me know because that’s a big one.
Almost the weekend!
PEACE
I had to laugh when I saw this! I have a MBA and an undergrad finance degree. I went with a MBA program that actually paid me to go there so there was no expense (other than lost income for the 1 year it took to get it). Initially it was an “in” for any job I wanted. Eventually (after about 15 years experience) it actually became a negative. In a poor economy, no one wanted to pay someone with 20 years experience and a MBA what someone else could do – they just wanted to know,”Do you have PROVEN sales experience?” when everyone was deserate to bring in revenue. So, I am doing something completely different now at A Clear Sign! I would tell anyone (1) do not go into massive debt for a degree – look for state programs and scholarships (2) if you think you’ll end up doing just about anything, get a BUSINESS degree (or at least take business courses online). It has come in handy in all facets of my life.
Julie | A Clear Sign recently posted..A Clear Sign’s Favorite Personal Synchronicity and Message From The Other Side
Hi Julie,
I was going through the comments on this post because they are great and there’s so much to learn and discovered that I didn’t reply to your comment. I read it weeks ago, but I guess I missed leaving a comment. Oops!
Great tips for those who do what to go the grad school route. You better get as much bang for your buck as you can – cause it ain’t cheap!
Thanks or sharing your experience here as a MBA holder. It’s always nice to hear directly from those with first hand experience.
Great comment – thank you!
I couldn’t agree more. I have so many friends who have gone back to get their MBAs merely because they think it’s the next logical step in their career progression. Some of them only go back to school because they’re tired of their jobs. Others want the prestigious mark on their resume. And one friend recently told me she’s going back to get her MBA because she thinks it will be a great opportunity to travel with MBA trips. When I suggested that there are other ways to travel that are cheaper and more exciting, she looked confused.
After taking the GMAT a few years ago, I made the decision not to go to business school. I have BS in Economics from a top-notch school where I took classes with MBAs. After a few years in my career, all my advisers at work kept telling me I HAD to go back to get my MBA. “You’re the perfect MBA candidate.” “You need the MBA to climb the corporate ladder.” “You need the MBA to start your own business.” I’m a big fan of education and continual learning, but there are so many ways to learn and the MBA is not “the right path” or the only path for career success.
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Hi Lindsay! Your comment spoke to me like I would speak to myself in the mirror. We have a lot of the same types of friends (or co-workers). We must be in a similar space, professionally, because I gotten the same messages from advisers.
And, like you, I’m a big fan of education and continual learning. Just because MBAs exist, doesn’t mean that they are the most applicable way to get ahead.
Thank you so much for the great comment. Hope your week is going well!
As an auto-didactic 60 year old Grandmother, (known as Nana) a former home school mom, and new entrepreneur I will only add — yep!
Yep, JK, you are correct.
Great post.
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Hi Nana!
I can only imagine the wealth of knowledge that you’ve picked up over the years that an MBA could never match. Thank you for jumping and lending your insight to the discussion here. Best to you!
It’s an easy trap to fall into thinking you need an advanced degree to be successful. So many other alternatives to learn subject matter outside of the classroom.
Once more people get over the “prestige” that having an advanced degree gives you, they’ll recognized the opportunities for education in the real world via apprenticeship, hands on experience, blogs, websites, books, videos, etc….
Great point Torrey – there are a lot of alternatives to learn outside of the classroom. And to be honest, those learnings are more applicable in many cases, especially if it comes from real life experience.
I couldn’t have said it better:
“Once more people get over the “prestige” that having an advanced degree gives you, they’ll recognized the opportunities for education in the real world via apprenticeship, hands on experience, blogs, websites, books, videos, etc….”
Thanks dropping by man. I appreciate you telling it how it is from your perspective!
I absolutely agree, Jk – and I have an MBA, so I know first-hand how over-rated they are.
There’s a bubble happening in the education world in general, and it’s tied to a bubble in salaries for people by sheer virtue of having a degree.
It’s going to be interesting when that bubble pops…
Danny @ Firepole Marketing recently posted..The Parables of Business: Interview with Danny Brown
Yes, the bubble is strong and it’s only a matter of time until that bubble pops. I can’t believe how big the bubble is getting. It’s swollen and at any moment can burst.
I think your MBA is a major personal accomplishment – especially considering what your plans are/were to do with it (teach).
Take care Danny
Hi JK,
I got my undergraduate degree in European History, but ended up in the business world working in marketing. After 10 years, I decided that I wanted to get my MBA so I could expand my knowledge beyond marketing and into subjects I had never studied: accounting, finance, economics, and operations. I attended a program for working professionals at a Cal State school–most of our professors had some private sector experience or had their own businesses. It was a tough 18 months, but the payoff was worth it–I no longer got passed over because my undergrad degree wasn’t in business. And, the MBA program gave me the comprehensive business knowledge I needed do my job better.
I had to hustle to get that degree!
Marianne Worley recently posted..Your Best Moments Make Your Best Days
I truly appreciate your post Ms. Worley. I worked in business for several years myself. Information from a variety of history classes I believed helped me in making business decision ie human nature. You are to be commended for completing an MBA program. I have contemplated the same program, although I am a business owner. I would like to complete the program for my personal education.
TheFashionistachic recently posted..Fear of the Unknown
Hi Marianne,
I’m sure it took some hustle to get that MBA. It’s truly a big accomplishment. And I’m glad that you find value in yours. Most people that I know (a lot of people) don’t find it as valuable. They got their MBA thinking it would catapult them magically, but it didn’t. But there are some, who have some hustle in them, and their MBA has served as a leverage point because they had the most important faculties in place first.
Thanks for sharing your perspective here. Very nice to hear some of the plus side!
Precisely JK, it has to do with the individual. Those who are not capitalizing on a post graduate education I believe has to do with personal short comings. Often time we make statements based on our personal experience. My husband obtain his Master by age 23. He’s is extremely successful because he also has an impeccable work ethic. I am extremely grateful because it affords me the opportunity to spend my morning surfing the internet and sharing my two cents. ☺☺☺☺☺
TheFashionistachic recently posted..Fear of the Unknown
You said:
“Those who are not capitalizing on a post graduate education I believe has to do with personal short comings.”
This is how I see it…
Just because a person has a graduate degree doesn’t mean that they should automatically be successful. Personal short comings come into play in all areas of life.
Let’s be honest….most people have the chops to get a masters. It doesn’t take a Superior mind of any sort. It’s only a matter of one going through the formality and BUYING the degree. And like having a blackbelt doesn’t mean that you can fight…a MBA doesn’t mean that you play with the big boys and girls.
Well, I think you already know how I feel about this one
“College seems like it’s a racket now days; all about hiking up the costs but not truly preparing young adults for the real world.” DEAD ON!
Like Danny above, I have a Master’s degree. It’s in Accounting. And what did I do with it? I quit my accounting job.
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Hey Eugene,
Yeah, I can only imagine that you find an MBA to not carry the weight you might have one time been under the impression that it would have. And considering you’ve made a move outside of the corporate walls – let’s me further know that your degree serves little to no purpose for you at the present time.
Good luck out there. Big move coming up, right?
PEACE
JK a few things If I may…
As has so readily been agreed. The results of a modern education cost too much and deliver too little.
I have had the luxury of both a hustlers education and a formal one. Started working at age 9 and have never stopped. Not working for blind works sake, but working to educate myself in the ways of earning coin, living life, being a man, making friends. being a friend and enjoying the wonder of being alive.
I have earned three degrees: theology, politics and education, they are a ladder and nothing more. move the ladder around and climb walls, obstacles and get a better view.
Sadly too few will realize the value of this hustle. I just posted about the Peter Principles and the path to final placement. Some get there right out of college, and like you some avoid it by a healthy dose of learning that applies what works in the real world.
John Updike and Rabbit had a lot to say about these things…
I’ll be back for more sir!
Billy Delaney recently posted..Why work doesn’t get done and what to do about it! (part #1)
Hi Billy,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your insight on this topic. Much appreciated! I see my degree as a ladder too. Doesn’t mean that the ladder is perfectly positions, for me to climb right to the not…no sir. Maneuverability is still a major requirement in my life.
You made a great point about not working for blind works sake, but to educate yourself in living life (in general). Most people work, but I don’t know if most work with the mindset of learning from what they do. I think this is an important thing with a degree or not…it seems to be a small piece of the divide that separates players from those on the bench.
I appreciate you stopping by Billy. Best to you!
GREAT post JK… I come from the corporate world where people look at advanced degrees like they are the Holy Grail. I worked at one of the top 4 accounting firms in the world. In 2008, I attended a PreMBA program hosted by Yale University where I was selected by peers as one of the most influential attendees (as well as “Mr. Too Much Information”…I told some CRAZY funny/borderline ridiculous stories). It was highly selective and made up of some of the brightest minds in the country. Upon leaving corporate I was thought to be one of the few who would ascend to Partner.
I mention these things to highlight the fact that none of what I achieved was a result of traditional education…And I definitely do not have an MBA. Hell, I left my accounting job and don’t even use my CPA. To this day, my family and friends cannot believe that I decided against joining the ranks of Top 10 MBA Programs. To them it sounds crazy, but I understand that having some fucking ambition and willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve your dreams is a lot more important than $100K textbooks.
What I find even more entertaining is the little secret (or maybe its not a secret) that top MBA programs have…and that is that they look for people who have a vision for what they want in the future, are actively taking steps to pursue it, AND (this is a real kicker) will most likely be successful with or without their help…Soooooo tell me again why I need you?
As you know I coach young professionals (to escape corporate). Typically, I get these reasons for the choice to go for an MBA
1. Networking
- Yet, it’s much cheaper and more effective to go to conferences, actually REACH OUT to people, etc…
2. Provide clarity on future career plans
- If undergrad didn’t help you, what makes you think grad is going to do any better…Why spend $100K on what some self-reflection does for free
3. Learn
- Yea… Learn all the same shit that Google teaches for free
To be honest, I learned more about success as a collegiate (pro to be) athlete than I ever did in the classroom! Sorry about the book I just wrote you. But, to sum it all up… I agree with you! hahaha
Darius Gant recently posted..A Corporate Fishy’s KILLER View From The Top
Wow Darius – you brought it in this comment bro. I could see the passion steaming off as I read it.
You’ve been there and done that. You’ve had the opportunity and you let it pass by because you realize that it’s a racket and wouldn’t do much for you in the long run. I’m in the same boat. I could have went back to school…I could have did it and not pay the huge sums that most do (by getting scholarships and what not)…but for me it came down to the time commitment and what an MBA actually delivers.
One thing I didn’t cover in my post was money. For one because I didn’t want to get into that discussion saying that I earn more than my MBA peers, who also happen to be older than me by a minimum of 10 years. BUT I DO! What does that tell you!!! And my current situation isn’t an anomaly either…I’ve been doing this for the last 4 years. Since I’ve taken on Corporate as an intrapreneur and made “hustle” a part of my approach to success.
$100k text books!!! I love that. and that’s all it is. There’s no real preparation that happens in an MBA program…or any educational program. Actually, probably the best prep schools are vocational schools because they teach a skill set that can be immediately used.
I appreciate you leaving this comment man. You brought a different angle to the discussion.Thanks for that. Let’s chat again soon.
PEACE
Great post JK. And my wife who has an MBA heartily concurs.
Riley
Riley Harrison recently posted..TIME FLIES BUT ARE YOU THE PILOT?
Thanks Riley. From the vibe I’m getting, 90% of the people concur with this message. But honestly, I respect everyone’s opinion. Take care!
Uneducated or Educated.
What does it mean to be Uneducated?
(1) It means to be a slave to your feelings of insecurity.
(2) It means to suffer from needless feelings of inadequacy.
(3) It means to fear making stupid mistakes.
What does it mean to be Educated?
(1) It means to possess self-understanding, which includes knowing what you want.
(2) It means that there is only one of you inside of you making decisions.
(3) It means to see through the folly of degrees and know that you have what it takes with or without a degree.
I graduated from college and have two masters degree, but none of this educated me. I have been very successful in several of my own businesses, and I’ve hired people with MBA degrees to work for me. Often, I find they are not educated according to my definition.
Let the truth shake up your identity as much as it wants to – it will show you who you really are and what you are really capable of doing, no matter what your IQ, your race, creed, sex, political affiliation or college degree may be.
I love working with folks who are educated according to my definition above.
This is just my opinion, and it has worked well for me.
blessings, rob
Hi Rob,
I knew you would have a different “type” of take on what education means to you. I like what you’ve shared. This is what I learned from your comment:
It really doesn’t have much to do with books and classrooms, rather life in general. If you are willing to have a life of prosperity and do the things that it takes to be in that realm; you’re educated. And the contrary for the contrary.
This means that even one who posses a PhD can be more “uneducated” than a homeless man (which goes against the way society, in general, thinks). It’s not about having a degree, it’s about believing that you are educated and acting accordingly by realizing that a piece of paper, or two or three years in a classroom doesn’t make you smart or equipped to take on the world…it’s already within us, if we’re willing to let it shine.
I took a lot from your comment. My understanding for what education meant to me has changed because of reading it.
Thank you Rob!
We all have dream of making it big and dong big things. The only thing that makes a man is his mind. My friend told me this quote one day, It says, ‘ The mind is the standard of the man.” All that really matters is ones thinking, thoughts, belief and actions. If we see ourselves as great achiever, we will become this. No college degree can define you unless you believe it does. Just focus on your craft, foucs on your greatness n let the rest sit under the mud. Hustle, Hustle, Hustle…HARD!
jonathanfigaro recently posted..How Stupid Are You With Your Money
Hey Jonathan,
You made an interesting point here…
” If we see ourselves as great achiever, we will become this.”
I see this being somewhat true. And let me share my thoughts on it.
People say that they see themselves as great achievers…but under it all, they know they aren’t – they don’t really trust it. They do average work and give average effort…which proves they don’t really seem themselves as great. They try to hype themselves up by telling themselves (even though they don’t really believe it) that they are great achievers…but their comment to excellence shows differently.
Also, hustling is relative to one’s life. It’s hard for one to say that she hustles harder than the next person because of the relativity. But this is another area where people hype themselves up but never get results. If you never get results that you’re after…you just might not be the hustler you thought you were. Or, if you give up before getting what you’re after…then you surely aren’t the hustler you thought you were.
For those that think they are great achievers or great hustlers…what accomplishments do they have as a result? That’s the great divide right there for those who THINK they are great achievers and those that ARE great achievers. It’s more than thinking…it’s actually doing…and doing until you get it.
What do you think about this?
PEACE
Wow, this certainly shook the cobwebs from my brain Jk, thanks for sharing this insightful read!
Like others who have commented before me, I have studied higher education. I have a BA (Hons) degree in Drama, graduated in 2008. I chose that subject because I wanted to further my love of acting onstage, and to get into playwriting. It also helped that I took part (and still do) in amateur dramatics.
The results? I haven’t landed any professional acting work, or playwriting work. I would say now that if I could go back in time and rethink my decision, I would either not go to university at all, or go but do a degree centered around business in some way.
Why? Because I made the mistake of choosing a subject that I enjoyed doing, but had no ideal career prospects. I thoroughly enjoyed my time at university, but I gained little in terms of future career prospects. I haven’t been able to get the most of that time spent. And the part that worries me is that others are in the same position as me. My brother is in his first year at university, studying Geography – I reckon he’s got more chance of building on from that than I did, but I hope he doesn’t end up missing out. I hope he realises the situation that you’ve described Jk, before it’s too late.
Do I recommend university now? Yes, IF you know what you’re gonna do after you’ve graduated. If you don’t, then I don’t recommend it at all
Stuart recently posted..The 3 Pretty Awesome Big Dreams That Warlords Use
Hey Stu,
I hear what you are saying. Overall, I recommend anyone who has the opportunity to get their Bachelors to go for it. It was a great experience for me…so I assume that it would be the same for others. But, at the same time – I don’t think it will make or break a person professionally. Sure, some doors will close – but that doesn’t mean that aren’t a gizillion other things to get into.
I enjoyed your post this morning. Sorry to hear about your job man but I know you have big things to come. Good luck on all that you have on the horizon…and have fun on vacation. Let’s skyp again soon.
PEACE
Hi JK,
Like you, I value education but think our entire system needs a major overhaul. It’s not just college, it starts in grade school The only thing our education system really needs to teach kids and young adults (and what it fails miserably at) is teaching them how to learn, how to research, how to go about gaining the knowledge that they want. And then, it should do nothing but support them in that endeavor. Instead, we teach children that learning is boring and awful. We teach them to memorize useless facts so they can pass a test. We often teach them to hate learning, and many people stop doing so the second they leave school.
I’ve had many colleagues in my career (careers, actually) who had major credentials but no real world knowledge. University can be very useful as a basis. But it’s absolutely no substitute for real life experience. The stories I could tell… he, he.
What’s wonderful is that many kids are starting to realize the fallacy of the old system. And so are adults. I think the time is coming (perhaps sooner than later) when our entire education system will break down and will then be rebuilt into something that actually supports the new world we’re moving into. Schools full of inspired thinkers who learn by going after their passions. I’m going to spend my energy on that vision.
Hugs,
Melody
Melody | Deliberate Receiving recently posted..Can The Negative Thoughts Of Others Influence Us? – VLOG
Hello Melody,
“University can be very useful as a basis. But it’s absolutely no substitute for real life experience. The stories I could tell…”
And the stories I could tell…Here’s one:
When I got the job that I have now…where my peers are 10 years older (at minimum) and I’m under educated (on pager) compared to them, I was hired in senior role. When I was being recruited, the headhunter told me that they (my employer) wasn’t so concerned about me not meeting the MBA requirement because my experience and recommendation (from a past colleague) met their requirement.
In their eyes, they wanted someone who had a track record of getting results. Not someone who carried a backpack full of educational formalities. Not saying formalities are bad…but I am saying that they are starting to carry the weight they should = which is less than what real life-proven experience carries.
Thanks for the great comment.
Terrific topic JK!
I think many people avoid this subject because we’re so ingrained in this country to revere higher education. And as many have noted here, that reverence is often at the expense of common sense and a real motivation to grab the knowledge that you actually want and need instead of what some career track says you have to take.
You hit on a serious pet peeve of mine – the sometimes ridiculous course requirements that are built into degree programs and the lack of courses that offer really useful “real-world” experience.
I spent 4 years getting my B.A. in Theater History because I thought it would make me more well-rounded and interesting as an actor – but did it help me get any acting work, or teach me how the real “business” of acting was run? Big resounding NO.
In the meantime, I have many friends who spent that same 4 years hustling their butts off, networking and taking small jobs here and there – and quite a few of them are now enjoying very successful (highly-paid) careers in the entertainment industry.
I don’t regret the time I spent at school, as I feel I did learn a lot in some areas that I may not have ventured into, but if I had it to do over again I might very well rethink choosing school over going straight to work.
My husband got his MBA several years ago, and it did nothing to help him to land a higher paying position. In fact, when he did land a better job, it was because of skills he acquired outside of the MBA program.
But like, everything else, it’s a matter of context. In Marianne’s case it seems that achieving her MBA made a huge difference in her career.
Bottom line is that I think higher education is often very much over-rated and one should seriously consider their particular circumstances, personal preferences AND financial standing before making the leap into such an expensive commitment.
Tisha | tMedia recently posted..Find Your Spark: Interview with Tammy Tribble of Mimetic Design Systems
Tisha,
I’ve never nodded my head so much as I did when reading this comment. It was on point. I was going to highlight the entire first paragraph that said:
“I think many people avoid this subject because we’re so ingrained in this country to revere higher education. And as many have noted here, that reverence is often at the expense of common sense and a real motivation to grab the knowledge that you actually want and need instead of what some career track says you have to take.”
But then I realized that the entire comment was on fire (in a great way).
I wouldn’t take back getting my B.S. – but I will say that it’s only as good as the person’s work ethic who has it, or any degree. I don’t think because a person spent $$$ or time getting a degree, means that they deserve anything more. I think the foundation of that requirement is hard work and being good at it…and as we both know – a degree is not a prereq to hustling.
Blessings to you!
The world is filled with so many labels some of which don’t really matter much if we can just get ourselves to focus on our God given talents and develop them. This is how many of the world’s successful people have gotten ahead in life despite MBA’s or other formal certifications. People like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Michael Dell and co. didn’t bag any formal degrees, yet they are highly successful in life.
I wrote coincidentally about this on my blog specially for entrepreneurs, why achieving results is the greatest competitive edge in business. No one will doubt results even if it comes from a hustlers. Results don’t tell promises of what is to come, results simply show what is done and proof of what is to come.
In the end, what matters is not what you have, but more of what you’ve done with what you have. Rather than focus on the MBA’s go make something SIGNIFICANT [unique and useful] with your life with the time others use to bag MBA’s.
Thanks for the post JK.
Tito Philips, Jnr. recently posted..Your Greatest Competitive Edge In Business
Hey Tito,
I loved your comment because it was really down to earth and focused on what matters most.
“In the end, what matters is not what you have, but more of what you’ve done with what you have.”
If we can make the best of what we have, we’ve accomplished a huge feat. I personally know so many people who have gotten tricked into thinking that an MBA was their road to success only to find that it wasn’t. It could have helped (and still can), but they aren’t willing to use their intangibles to the max.
PEACE
To me nothing can be hands on experience. You can have all the education in the world, but it’s not going to do you a lick of good if you don’t know what your doing.
I do envy people who do go on and get their masters degree because I know it’s a long road. Most people who graduate with there Bachelors degree are just fed up with school at that point.
It’s a huge accomplishment to continue the schooling process.
With that being said, some of the most influential/successful people didn’t go on to get their masters degree. And being a recent grad myself I know for a fact that I’ve learned much more by DOING things rather than reading a text book and listening to lectures.
I’m still trying to figure out if I really want to get my masters. I’ve always been the type of person that learns best by physically doing something. Going through the trial and error process. That’s how I learn best. So, the question still looms for me…,should I get my masters or not.
Hey Jeremy,
I tell you what – if you want to get your masters…you should go for it. I just want to share that your professional accomplishments won’t necessarily be advanced just because of the extended schooling…that notion is not accurate. And as you can tell from the comments in this post – most that do have an MBA wish they didn’t waste their time and money..
I’m all for education…I just want people to realize (those who don’t have an MBA) – they don’t need one to be successful. It’s NOT the only next step to success. If they do come in to play, it’s after years of getting real on-the-job training.
Again – it’s all about realities and doing things for what is in line with your goals. If you have that MBA or any masters within your sites – make it happen – and make the best of it. Don’t think it’s an automatic boost…it’s not!
PEACE
I’ve observed that those who do not have an MBA devalue the MBA. True or false?
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I have observed, first hand that those who get their MBA devalue the MBA once they realize that it didn’t live up to the hype. [true].
I’m sure those happen too. The problem is if you go to a crappy school and still expect to make $200,000 upon graduation. Stick with the Top 15.
It’s fun to theorize JK as someone without an MBA, but I’m telling you straight up that if you get one from a Top 5 or 10 business school, you will be that much more marketable. Stick with the better schools. Does making $400,000 more on average post MBA sound decent to you?
Hustle is your MBA is fine, especially since not everybody can get in the best schools. Just be careful not to denigrate MBAs too much b/c you might face one one day who is in charge of hiring you. And if you want some to hustle with, I’m ready to take on the Challenge with you on the online endeavor as well.
Best, Sam
Financial Samurai recently posted..Socialism As A Means To A Brighter Future
Hey Sam – thanks for the reply!
I’m not just theorizing here. I’m speaking from my day to day life. Most of my co-workers have them, my best friend has one from Harvard. Not sure if that’s a top 5-10 b-school, but he’s shared just about all of his experiences and many of those of his contacts from school.
So I’m not just having fun here. I’m not just making stuff up off the cuff.
If you took any offense because you have an MBA and it’s served you well…by all means – I didn’t mean to offend you. And I offer a sincere apology. I’m simply stating the facts from my experiences from those who have MBAs, and how I’ve been working along side MBAs for the past 4 years, without one, and excelling at parallel or increased speeds. This post wasn’t to downplay an MBA, rather to make those who aren’t so fortunate to get one to know that it’s not a requirement to be successful.
So no denigration here. I’ll speak of this in the face of anyone because I don’t speak it in an offensive tone, or with any mission to be negative. It’s like someone saying that buying a certain type of car isn’t all that the hype said it was…It’s no offense to anyone who bought the car; just sharing the results experienced by others don’t match up to the hype.
I appreciate your reply Sam. And let me go on record saying that I agree with you. I agree that having a MBA from a top 5-10 institution comes with some automatic pluses…much more so than those who took/take the University of Pheonix route (not saying there’s anything wrong with U of P…it’s like the McDonald’s of adult learning).
Have a great week. Thanks for the good debate, sam!
JK – Just be careful. You might not always be lucky and excelling the way you are now. You might one day come across a new opportunity, and the gatekeeper has an MBA. S/he will Google you, find this article and think twice.
Good luck in your endeavors!
Sam
Financial Samurai recently posted..Socialism As A Means To A Brighter Future
I appreciate you looking out Sam! With the current swing of social media – one will always be attached to what he says online. Very good point.
I guess I’ll have to own, with a smile, any recourse that could come from a post such as this…even though it doesn’t dismantle the accomplishment of an MBA, but simply states that in many cases (at least according to the comments…not only my experience) those who have MBA’s don’t end up getting the results that they thought they would.
If that disqualifies me as a candidate…I’d have to say that wouldn’t be a place that I would chose to work. So it would turn out to be a win/win for both parties! I wouldn’t want to work for someone overly sensitive about formalities (because I’m not very formal), and they wouldn’t have to be stuck with someone who thinks that while MBA’s are a great accomplishment; they are more of a formality than a true way to assess one’s strengths of being successful at a given job.
I wish you the best in your endeavors as well Sam.
For me, Monday is an hour away. No escaping!
PEACE
Hi Sam. Self-deceived men deceive other self-deceived men, and that explains entirely the dreadful human condition. When a man is not deceived, he needs not a degree to take himself to where he wants to go. A hardened man could hear the best teacher of the decade and still walk away hardened. An open minded man need hear no one to know that life will give him all that he needs to achieve what he has a conviction to achieve. Heaven sighs when man makes a list of educational standards that must be followed to experience one’s unlimited potential. That’s just my humble point of view. blessing
From a mom’s point of view? I’ll have 3 in college this Fall. I watched the two who just spent a year in college come away w/ nothing but memories. The 3rd is self-disciplined and focused like the 1st was. I just want to see the love of learning kick in! That’s what makes life worth living. Right? If my best mentors are on a campus, so be it. But I’m learning a lot on my own, too, because there isn’t another way right now. I cringe when I hear about degrees and titles. Just have an interesting conversation with me, teach me something I don’t know (lead me in the direction where I can find out more for myself), and just be so full of life because you’re passionate about what you do! I don’t care if you love street-sweeping. Just do it well, and be happy being of service.No degree can give you those qualities.
Betsy
Hello Betsy,
I think it’s safe to say that for most people, under-graduate study is more about the social experience more than anything. I worked really hard in school, and still, I think the biggest of my memories were those of doing things outside of school. I think it’s been like this since the 70′s (I’m imagining).
I think you ended your great comment perfectly:
“I don’t care if you love street-sweeping. Just do it well, and be happy being of service..No degree can give you those qualities.”
I couldn’t agree more! Thanks for stopping by and leaving such a great comment.
I feel you 112% on this one man!!!
I have seen both sides. I graduated business school a year ago, and some of my friends went the “mba” route, some went the “first job offer” route, but I took the “Create my own path” route.
While the beginning was a shaky, nervous path… it has really panned out to offer more opportunities then I could imagine.
My alumni counter-parts are about to graduate AGAIN now with an MBA, and they will enter the workforce with another piece of paper.
I feel, I on the other hand… Am now about to launch 2 online brand and continually learn through client work, recording podcasts, doing interviews, and writing daily.
When I graduated I went to 5 conferences in 5 months, did crazy networking, intense learning, and EVEN MORE FAILING. But after instilling a HUSTLE MENTALITY and lighting that fire as much as I can… I feel the Personal MBA route was good to me.
I wrote a post about it a while ago, “Create Your own MBA for Higher Learning” that highlighted a guest post I wrote in length about this Radically Ambitious way of pursuing knowledge and success.
My favorite part of this posts, is I did not just read the normal “yea, if you work your ass off, and be creative you can slip through the cracks and be successful… ” You ACTUALLY provided me with a NEW way of learning.
I might have to write up a follow up post on how my personal MBA lead me to classes at YALE!!! Thanks for that link man, I am checking it out now.
Srini had some great insight as well, especially since it is from an MBA perspective…
Great Black Belt Reference btw… Have you practiced martial arts?
Surfs up,
http://www.surflifestyledesign.com/create-your-own-mba-program-for-higher-learning/
Sal – what’s up man!
No, no martial arts for me. When I was a kid, like 7, I did a very short stint…but I can’t say that it stuck…Like my main style of education is street smarts…my martial arts is the same!
As I was reading your comment I was excited to see that you had already written about this from your personal experience in not going the MBA route. Can’t wait to check that out.
My bad on the reply-back time. I’ve been crazy busy. The summer is coming to an end for the kids and we’ve been keeping the activities high.
Glad you enjoyed the post man. And good luck to your current and future endeavors in creating your own path!
Oops… Sorry that extra link got in the bottom there, that was an accident!
p.s. Is there a day you regularly post on? Like Fridays always?
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No prob on the link. Doesn’t bother me a bit!
And no, no day of the week that I post. Typically on Thursdays and Fridays – but I don’t post on a schedule.
PEACE
Hi JK,
Good to be back reading your posts my friends.
I agree with you education is important and crucial, but it is not that you will do good in the “real world.” There are many people who didn’t go to college at all, but are very, very successful in their careers, money domain, and all other life domains. These kinds of people have learned through experience a lot and many have a great belief and faith in themselves, which is one of the main reasons they became successful. There are many who have MBAs, but are not very successful in life. Go figure… Great post JK, 
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Hey Dia,
Crazy how society has this automatic correlation between success and education. I think this link does exists…but the education doesn’t have to be [what we refer to as] formal education. Being self-taught isn’t crime and can get us pretty far if we are willing and able to apply our learnings.
Nice to see you Dia – I’ve been a little out of my normal blogging schedule and activities…been busy! But I’ll be in touch soon.
PEACE
Hey Jk Hope all’s good king
Who need a degree! – Well I really needed to take a degree, not for the paper – but to prove to myself that I could do the course.
When I learnt to read/write university was on my Hit list – I just wanted to test my muscle. I had read so many books on Psychology before I started. so I already had a solid foundation. The degree was more about debating, it was fun, lots of nice girl’s. I’m with you! For me self-education outside of traditional setting has been so freeing.
Blessing and peace J
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You met girls and you debated?? Ha Ha that is what you took away from your education sir!!! May I asked what did you learn from the debates? Did it improve your reasoning skills? Guess that would be dependent on the school and the intelligence of the other students.
TheFashionistachic recently posted..Fear of the Unknown
Good for you getting your degree and proving to yourself that you could meet the academic requirements. It’s a huge feat which I don’t want to diminish, rather dispel that it’s not a direct correlation to success, more than it’s a great experience to learn and learn about life.
Considering the challenges of your situation – that’s extra big that you were able to do it. I know it had to be a struggle – so all the more props to you.
Blessings back at you L!
PEACE
My brother used to tell me what a loser I would be without a degree. I dont have a degree and I earn more and have achieved more.
Ha ha! Funny how things sometimes work out, eh? And didn’t Bill Gates drop out of college?
Steven recently posted..Beliefs and Your Map of Reality
Bill Gates did – from my knowledge. Who would have thought!
Have a good week Steven.
Hey Matt – I don’t find this surprising at all. That piece of paper doesn’t trump one’s ability to be effective at his job. It is, for the most part, simply a formality.
Thanks for stopping by!
There’s a lot to be said for the ability to solve real problems and create value.
Everything I needed to know, I didn’t learn in Kindergarten.
I’ve learned it from the school of hard knocks.
Experience has always been my best teacher, and I think the best way to win in the game of life, is to continuously expand myself.
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Hey J.D.
I too think the best way to win in the game of life is to continuously expand yourself. To me that means being present to identity the many lessons that present themselves to us on a daily basis; to be humble and realize that what you know, isn’t the end all; to be open minded and willing to be teachable – even to one who [on paper] is professionally inferior; ect.
I’m in attendance at the school of hard knocks daily!
Have a great week. Thanks for the email last week!
real education starts when you go to work or even more start your own business. necessity and hungry for knowledge mind are the best teacher no matter what you’ve learned in college/university
Hey George!
Thanks for leaving this powerfully stated comment. It’s really that simple in my eyes too. Theoretical learning only goes so far…being on the job is where you develop the chops!
While some of the points you make are valid, I would think that you are taking a rather extreme view that a MBA education is not needed if you are a “hustler”. There are a multitude of problems associated with the current MBA education — both from an aspirant’s view and from the school’s view.
I have detailed this and a deeper analysis on my own blog at: http://subbaiyer.com/perspective/learning-perspective/the-true-value-of-a-mba-education
Mr. Iyer – Thank you for the comment sir!
I just had a chance to check out your analysis on your blog and I must say that it was GREAT! Thank you for putting that together and sharing a link here.
I agree that my position was/is rather extreme. Believe it or not, I’m much more conservative, overall, but this post came at the culmination of a lot of experiences that I’ve shared alongside co-workers and friends who systematically when to grad-school…simply applied themselves enough to get passing grades. They didn’t learn much…they were more so caught up in the idea of being able to jump a head…which didn’t work out for them (at least not yet). They basically went through the steps of BUYING a MBA…a purchase with very little interest gained.
Given that constant, along with the one where many kids from the inner city (and other social levels) don’t get a chance to go to college at all…I wanted to share that work ethic comes before it all anyway; hustle. If you are willing to work hard enough, and focused enough, you just might find yourself working alongside one with an elevated degree.
I appreciate your comment and analysis on your blog.
Have a great week Subba!
Good morning Jk!
I love the way you make people think, make me think! This is such a valuable post for me personally because I have no degree and graduated high school early because life was waiting for me and I had to get to it!
My “career” path has more ups and downs than a black diamond ski sloop!
When I was 16 I was fortunate to work with one of the top hairdressers in the world at the time as his makeup artist for a big show. One of the audience members seemed miffed that I was on stage and asked him why I was there and what school did I go to warrant my being there. The class act that he was, just looked at her and said, “I want her here and she attended the ‘school of hard knocks’.” That was a moment in time, yet it also gave me a huge complex.
Having no educational degree hinder my dry years in the corporate world and definitely kept me at a certain level. But as I got older and the entrepreneurial blood came to a boil, I ventured out and talk about hard knocks!! Over the last 8 years I have had more practical, hands on business experience than any school could have ever provided. As well, my confidence level has soared. I am not intimidated in any way of someone with a degree, as I can hold my own. Now, I also greatly respect those with a degree and call upon them in the areas that I am not knowledgeable or qualified in. Part of being successful is knowing that it takes a lot more than just yourself and oh what a journey it has been.
I’m thrilled you brought this subject to light in your post … you make me feel like I’m ok and not a nut. I agree with everything you wrote – it’s hard not to on this… I knew I liked you!
Wishing you a faboo, meaningful week Jk! You are such an inspiration and joy … thank you!
Much kindness,
Elena
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Hi there Elena,
Sorry for the delay in reply. August has been a busy one – finally starting to calm down.
” Over the last 8 years I have had more practical, hands on business experience than any school could have ever provided.”
PRACTICAL, HANDS ON BUSINESS EXPERIENCE. Schools don’t offer this. They offer theoretical concepts, based on real-life simulation…but nothing can truly mock the dynamics of real life experience – which is what you have gained.
And even with a formal college education, it doesn’t mean it would make you any more stronger than what you currently are anyway!
Have a great weekend Elena. Thanks for the awesome comment!
Can’t say I agree with this post. I encourage education immensely. As an American I am proud of the availability of education in our country. If someone doesn’t seek a higher education its due to their choices.
Often times JK an employer will choose a candidate with less educational background to minimize his cost. Especially in these economic times. I also blame much of economic crisis on the lack of consumer’s education. Going into the housing market and consumer lack of understanding is way too detail to cover here.
Someone also made a statement about being asked about his GPA. You’ve never been asked about your GPA, but I have been asked about my GPA. I’ve gone to job fairs where fortune 500 company will not speak to a candidate with anything less than a 3.0.
A great education helps an individual become well rounded. Education is not the long road it’s a short cut in my opinion. The classes are arranged and developed with the information one needs depending on his field. While those who choose to educate themselves are kind of grasping for straws.
Yeah, I am a stronger supporter of education. Who is extremely proud of the American system which promotes education. As a black women who recognize how many young black men who share this philosophy, to be quite frank, its scary. At the end of the day, You don’t know what you don’t know.
TheFashionistachic,
I’m not so happy about the educational system, just as many college professors aren’t. Many of them admit that the system is broken, and in need of repair. Anyhow…
I’m sure it happens…employers highering less [so-called] qualified candidates to minimize cost. Let me tell you another thing that they do…lay-off highly paid employees that they don’t value. And to be honest, the difference in pay scale is minimal.
I hate talking about money in this venue…but I’m 10 years younger than the next youngest person on my team. I’m lacking what all of my professional peers have; an MBA. But I’m packing what my employer wanted: someone who gets results. I was recruited by my current employer, and brought in at a senior level, the only senior level on my team. This isn’t by chance.
And when it comes to the GPA. It’s never played a role for me. Never. I graduated with a 3.5. At the time I was proud of that and listed it on my resumed. During my job searches after graduating I was told by a number of prospective employers to remove my GPA because times have changed. I recall one guy saying that GPA used to be the law when considering candidates. But now, it’s about assessing a candidates real life dynamics because a GPA doesn’t translate to a good job fit. So, I’ve never banked on my GPA or been not considered because of my GPA. In fact, I’ve had to take personality and characteristic/problem solving tests which allows employers to get a better idea of who you are.
Life experience helps a person become well-rounded. Education in general helps a person become well-rounded. It doesn’t have to be from a university.
Classes in American universities and colleges are not arranged and developed with the info one needs for their field. At least not arranged well. Why? Because mixed in are a bunch of classes that aren’t even needed. One who goes to school to be an engineer has to take prereqs that aren’t requirements to what they need. And to be honest – most people will attest that college didn’t prepare them for the job they got out of college. The system doesn’t work that way. The only place it does work that way is vocational school.
The reason I shared this message is because it’s so common for me to hear people have a “holier than thou” attitude when it comes to higher education (if they were fortunate enough to get one). The “better-than” attitude kills me. Some people just don’t have the opportunity in life. Does that make them less of a person? Or less opportune for success. Not in my book. I want people to know that they have options. It’s a matter of mindset.
In the end, we can get the answers to everything we need to know. Without an MBA (or any degree).
I am not so sure about these claims now, as I’ve used to be a couple of days before. My first job didn’t have any corelation to my degree, but my degree, changed the way I think about the world, and considering that I’ve lost my job, just a couple of days ago, I sure can say that it grants me security in advancing or starting a new career.
Do I think MBA would do good to me? It certainly would, as I am fortunate enough to afford it. Is it requirment in somone’s life to succeed? Certainly not! Take Bill, Steve and Zuckerberg for example! All three of them drop outs! One in a million? They are just extreme examples.
I might take MBA or I might pass. It all depends on circumstances that I am going to be in. But I don’t field the urge to complete it, as it’s influence on my life is little or non significant.
Hey Bojan,
Beyond the Bill’s, Steve’s and Zuckerberg’s, there are millions of people who don’t have college degrees who are also successful. So while those named will be one in a million, they are also one in a million amongst all people; degrees or not.
I wish you the best in your current situation; going for the MBA or just working on your career. You seem like a sharp guy so I trust that your decisions are made from close analysis of what’s best for you.
Take care man!
Jk,
I could write a book on my thoughts about the current educational system, a book. That is how strong my feelings are tied to the rip off that the modern education system has become. In grade school I was a very good student. I graduated with a 4.0 from a public school system, which is equivilent to a 1.3 at a private school. I started my college career playing catch up on things that I should have already know. This was no fault of my own, my teachers didn’t teach the material due to lack of time and resources. I was accepted into a great university but had the burden of paying for my education out of my pocket. This made me value the education I was getting a whole lot more. What is sad, is that the thing that I remember most about my college experience is the long list of pre requisite courses that I was required to take before I could get to my degree focused courses. Every course meant more dollars coming out of my pocket. So, instead of shelling out thousands of dollars on useless courses, I went to the library and read a book on finance. I self studied personal finance, investing and debt management while surrounding myself with people who actually worked in the field. Now without a college degree I work around people who on paper are 15x smarter than I am. Yet, I make more than they do and I don’t have 150K is student loan debt.
I hear you loud and clear. To each and every person who can’t afford to BUY a degree the world is not against you. You have the ability to create a life for yourself based on your energy and effort not by a piece of paper that tells someone you could afford to pay for unnecessary classes. Focus on the stuff that matters. If I did it I know anyone else can.
P.S. I was born and raised in Detroit, MI. I now work for a major brokerage firm without ANY formal degree.
Actually sir I majored in Finance and initially I was seeking a career in financial management. What I find perplexing is that you have the ability to educate yourself but lack the ability to earn a wage suitable to finance a formal education. Hmm.. perplexing..
TheFashionistachic recently posted..Fear of the Unknown
Hey Fashionistiachic,
I’m trying to figure out what’s perplexing?
And to be honest, what caught my attention in your reply to Franks comment was… ” What I find perplexing is that you have the ability to educate yourself but lack the ability to earn a wage suitable to finance a formal education. ” Sounded a little condescending to me (or did I read it incorrectly). No offense taken (I promise) – but I just want to share why I think Frank’s path is AWESOME.
But first off – He didn’t say that he couldn’t afford an education now. He said that he made the decision to stop paying for useless courses and self-educated educated himself. He was still able to land a job in his field of interest and without a degree…and to top it off he earns more than some of his professional peers that do have a degree.
I love this message because it goes to show that a degree doesn’t define how good you are at what you do. It doesn’t prove that your skills are higher (necessarily), just because you have a piece of paper and debt (for most people) to go along with it. It proves to those who are less fortunate that they can make it without having a degree….they don’t have to lean to the streets or an illegal lifestyle to keep their heads above water. They can self educate and hustle “the right way”.
I have a degree. I did very good in college (on paper). And there were kids who did better. But that doesn’t mean that they will or won’t have a better professional experience than me. One of the smartest I knew in college (book smart ONLY) had absolutely no social skills. He was socially awkward. BUT, he got a 4.0. That 4.0 means nothing compared to the intangibles that really matter (common sense, street smarts, being able to speak and get your point across, having the ability to interact with people, etc.).
I just had to jump in real quick. I have high stakes in people understanding that traditional ed isn’t the only education. There are options.
WOW!!!! Thank you for such a heartfelt response.
To me it was a matter of choice, not of economics. I CAN afford to pay for a degree. The question I have to you is, why would I choose to pay for a degree that is not necessary to compete with my peers who have them? Since you are a finance major, do you believe that investing in a degree is a suitable investment for me based on my comment above? And if so, why? If you have any pertinant insight to disagree with my point of view I am open and available for discussion. If all you have is childish banter and spiteful comments I believe they are accepting submissions on Seseame Street.com because I don’t have the time. Get real or get lost. Thanks for your reply
.
All I can say is that your passion on this subject is commended and respected.
Have a great weekend man!
Frank,
Now that is what I call a major hustle. After reading what you wrote, I too thought why the need for a ton of useless courses before actually getting the knowledge you needed to truly learn about your major. I get the whole “system” about why they do it, but I chalk it up as a way to keep you in longer and make more money off of you which only equates to more debt.
The kids coming out today can’t even get a job and are starting to wonder if their degree is what it’s call cracked up to be. It’s a sad situation. Nowadays, it’s who you know not what you know.
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Wow – I never commented on this one. Well, I explained my feelings towards your GREAT comment in my reply to TheFashionistachic’s reply to you.
Thanks man!
Couldn’t agree more with your conclusion.
I have a brother who just graduated from an expensive university and now has a business degree and yet… he is very poorly suited for the business world. He’s a very sharp kid but schools teach you to be good test takers, not action takers. Not once during his schooling was he required to go out in the real world and apply what he was learning… not unlike what happens if you want to be called a doctor.
I believe this Valedictorian beautifully sums up in her disappointment in the education system during her graduation speech. Check out her famous speech here… http://www.icyte.com/saved/blog.swiftkickonline.com/289830?key=773737700e02c844ca37c12d27f4d7859e81c608
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You are so correct. What I learned from having a lot of education is that I do not need a lot of education.
Have you read “Think and Grow Rich” by Napoleon Hill (most successful people have)? Hill studied 500 Top Performers—the richest and most powerful people throughout time. There is a great quote in that book where Hill says “An educated man is not necessarily one who has an abundance of general or specialized knowledge. An educated man is one who has so developed the faculties of man’s mind that he may acquire anything he wants, or its equivalent, without violating the rights of others.” Hill found that all of the 500 Top Performers had used their six intellectual faculties (will, imagination, memory, perception, intuition and reason) blended with their thoughts to create all of their success. It was not great luck, not because they had advanced education and not because they were born into wealth.
If you study Edison, you will find that he only had a 3rd grade education.
If you study Henry Ford, you will find that his path was not paved with easy goings
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JK,
Really good post that you wrote man with stating your feelings on how you feel about this matter. I know for myself it is quite interesting as I never went to college but now I own an internet marketing firm in Chicago. Just as you stated if you hustle and commit yourself to learning and self development that piece of paper is not going to do much for you at all but hang on the wall and look pretty. Self education in my opinion is one of the best things that you could do for yourself. I mean I pay for seminars and products that teach me about the specific things that I want to learn that I know would make me a better entrepreneur and I know I will benefit from. Sitting in a Biology class won’t help me with trying to rank on the first page of Google for four different keyword phrases. Wow, man this was just a great post.
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JK,
I have a masters degree in political science, but I haven’t really worked with anything related to political science ever. I needed the degree to get a job, but like you said, it was all a formality. The degree only stated that I was a person that they could “trust”, because I am willing to learn, and I could accomplish things, and I had some type of knowledge.
But, when you combine the masters degree with hustle, there are nothing that can stop me
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Holy ‘ish JK – I couldn’t agree more with this mindset.
When I decided to study Psychology in college it had NOTHING to do with wanting to get a job in the field, it was solely about learning about something that interested me.
I was driven by good grades, or getting a degree, or even money, it was an intrinsic passion to know more.
They can’t teach you that mindset in school. And honestly, so many colleges today are easy to “BS” through. But the economy is very telling – what does this paper really mean anymore? Most organizations want practice and experience, they don’t give a flying hoot about 4-8 years locked in some classroom with no practical knowledge.
Damn JK, can’t agree with you enough here.
And to bring it around full circle, I was more interested in studying Psych from a business perspective than a clinical one. Most people just said, “Why didn’t you just study business or get an MBA?” Well, in part, because that is just too damn cliche.
You HAVE to create your own path, and it won’t always include college. I only wish more people were aware of this fact.
Steven recently posted..Beliefs and Your Map of Reality
I WASN’T* driven by “good grades, getting a degree…”
I think faster than I type. :/
Steven recently posted..Beliefs and Your Map of Reality
hello jk
how are you?
you’ve raised important points here and i think it’s a chicken and egg issue.
a report was published today most 4 year olds in school(UK) dont know their names in reception and a third of 11 year olds fail to grasp the 3Rs, 1 in 10 boys at the age of 11 can read no better than a 7 year old…..(the list goes on and i dont want to bore you)
so education is really important but i also believe that experience acquired through hustling with a purpose is also essential.
i worry a bit about some of the younger generation who only nurse ambitions of being the next jay z, kanye west… without doing anything else.
i am also concerned at times about the negative impact of reality tv because it takes away the thoughts of education.(controversial)
would you say being on a reality tv show is a form of hustle(my apologies, i digress)
There’s a difference between knowing things theorectically and knowing and possibly living it through experience.
we must widen our knowledge base through reading books, browsing the internet, getting some form of education but we shouldnt lose sight of practical experience.
sometimes trial and error gets us very far depending on how we manage each situation.
quick question jk: out of curiousity would you say the upper class tend to hustle (i am of two minds here)
thanks for sharing.
take care and enjoy the rest of the day
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JK may I commend you on your emotional intelligence quotient. I truly am impressed. No condescension dear. I think there are some cultural differences here. What I believe to be beneficial may differ from you and the gentlemen. I don’t measure success by a paycheck or a title.
What may have confused me were these statements.
“I was accepted into a great university but had the burden of paying for my education out of my pocket. This made me value the education I was getting a whole lot more.”
The use of “burden” “Paying for an education out of my pocket” Who else would be paying for the privilege of ones education? It is a privilege not a right. Secondly, their was mention about prerequisite course. To truly debate the topic we would have to exam what we thought to be useless.
I should preface by saying I love to learn. I learned about “life” specifically human nature in my Modern Art course. Which made me an excellent negotiator. I learned how to engage with different nationalities in my Cultural Dance and Diversity. As you know i am managing my son to assist with my blog. I learned those skills in a Managerial course I over a decade ago.
You know JK I will respect your space. I am just a proponent of education. Life is complicated in it self…. Why not prepare yourself as much as possible to be the best ‘you” you can be. I can go on and on about the benefits of a formal education. Yes, I know unfortunately an education isn’t for everyone. It require commitment and discipline, NO! Not everyone has the aptitude to apply the information they obtain to life situations. My education aided in obtaining position with fortune 500 companies, but it also made me a great mom and resourceful wife. Yeah JK I could on and on about the benefits of a formal education.
I must say, as all ways, it was a pleasure ☺! Nothing but ♥♥♥♥.
Thanks for the comment. One thing we have in common is our passion to learn. As I shared in my post I often take courses at MIT, YALE and other universities based on subjects that I’m interested in and that apply to my work specifically. I’ve taken an astro physics class for the heck of it. Just to see what it was about and to see if I had interest in that area (AND I DON’T). But I do think it’s important to always be trying to improve and increase. I just don’t think that college is the only way to do it. And I don’t think it’s the road to success. Yes, it can be an avenue, but only as much as the next thing.
I think we’re on the same page here (which isn’t a requirement). But as you said, it could be a matter of culture or even tradition and experience that keeps our minds strong in what we believe in with education.
Do I think it’s a bad thing – no way. If a person has the opportunity, go for it. But do I think that generalized advanced degrees (MBAs) truly prepare one to be better at what they do…I don’t think so one bit.
Thanks for the great debate. I value you opinion and appreciate you providing this last comment.
Hi its me again,
Could you define what you mean by cultural differences? I am having a hard time understanding how culture could play an issue in this debate. I value a difference in opinion and I am happy to discuss, respectfully, my point of view based off of facts and my personal experience. So, for clarification purposes let me explain the statements in more detail that may have been confusing. The use of the word burden was not tied to my education it was tied to how my education was funded. As a 18 year old kid, in the inner city, I worked 50+ hours a week to pay for my tuition, books and supplies. This was done without the need of taking out a student loan or creating a massive amount of debt that would take me years to pay off. My burden was working all night so I could go to school all day. So, instead of using borrowed money, my parent’s money or scholarships, not available for people in my demographic, I valued every dollar that was spent towards educating myself a lot more. If I failed a class it not only cost me money but I had just lost out on a entire 3 months worth of pay and time.
In my experience a lot of my peers didn’t take the path I was on or have the burden of funding their own education. My peers had trust funds, scholarships, and loans I didn’t want. The mention of the prerequisite course is tied back directly to the economics needed for school. I didn’t want to take a class that was completely unrelated to my major. My goal wasn’t to become well rounded it was to educate myself to put me in the best position to take care of myself and my family. I was frustrated that I needed to take a physical activity course to get an electronic engineering degree. Classes are not cheap.
My issue is not with the degree as I respect anyone who has reached any level of educational success. My issue is with the process. The way the institutions are set up currently does not seem like they are for the benefit of the students but for the college itself. I think college should be more about education and less about the business of running a school. To me a degree is now a symbol of status not an esteemed intellectual accomplishment. This is not to diminsh those who have achieved great feats in education but not everyone does it the right way.
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Ok Jk,
I took a few deep breaths with a smirk on my face as I prepared to respond to this awesome article lol. I’m indifferent about this posts, I guess because I’ve always viewed higher education as a means of progression, partially because it is formality (as you stated) in today’s world. I guess I’ve kind of conformed in order to “make it” in this world.
You’re right, obtaining a college degree…well an undergraduate degree isn’t THAT hard; however my Masters of Management Studies (MMS) degree, KICKED MY @$$. It was a pre-experienced master’s degree that seperated a small group of us from the one’s with bachelor’s degrees and the MBA’s. It was the HARDEST YEAR OF MY LIFE! Never have I taken something so seriously. That piece of paper means a great deal!
As far as achieving that role in the work place, I do think education plays a great role in this. It’s not hard to tell the difference between a person who’s been to college and one who hasn’t. Shoot, I became a different person after graduating Duke for my masters. I was more assertive and direct where my bachelors degree was a “passive” achievement (probably because it was easier).
But as far as landing a job when a person sees those creditentials (as horrible as it sounds) some people may not even get their foot in the door without them. Some people don’t get a chance to show their greatness simply because they don’t have a college degree or a master’s degree. It’s unfair, but true. That’s where the formality comes in to play and where one is almost required to conform.
For me, there’s no excuse for not obtaining some form of higher education, get an associates degree or something. Community College is an awesome substitute and way more affordable than 4 year universities. I had many friends that went to community colleges for 2 years then transfered to 4 year universities as a means of saving money. I think money is an excuse not to go. There are SOOO MANY scholarships/grants out there, you may have to “hustle” to get them, but still, they’re there. It lies in how bad a person wants it, ya know?
So I guess what I’m trying to say is that the educational background is all a part of my hustle. I did what I had to do to pave the way for future opportunities….I’m not there yet, but I KNOW I’ll reap the benefits. Work hard now….play even harder later!
Love articles like this! Face to face we could have went to town on this dicussion.
Love it JK….such a debatable topic…lol.
I WHOLE heartedly agree with what you say and sometimes even with a degree there is still an amount of hustle involved if you get the degree without a game plan or knowing exactly what you want to do. Yes…you are correct about many careers that a degree serves a specific purpose in order to fulfill that passion.
Being a student with straight A’s in the past and having a bachelor degree and being someone (at the time) who didn’t know what the heck I wanted to do with it and everybody saying it is the thing to get……I just don’t have the same feelings about it like I used to…some of the same experiences (besides the academics) I had in college could have been obtained through other means…looking at it in hindsight.
But to each is own with this. If a degree is highly valued and you feel that it is necessary…I suppose it will be necessary for that person.
But as a highly spiritual and aware ‘hustler’….it is something that is definitely not needed in my life
Great topic Jk! Like Chelsea, my education is a part of my hustle. Without my MBA I would not even conceive the business that my husband and I am working on in Northern California. My MBA has taught me the process of strategic planning, management, policies and procedures. Likewise, it has taught me how to apply my psych background into a unique business format (my MBA is in health care administration), and it has offered me a network (actual and potential) of individuals who can offer support for someone like me who lives in a rural community that lacks the cushy resources that urban college towns take for granted.
However, it is only through life’s struggles, I am learning about patience and perseverance. Furthermore, it is only through cynicism and wicked works of naysayers, I am learning about steadfastness. I believe that the MBA education offers us the opportunity to find the fundamental truths about conducting business in our society; however, it is only through experience we learn about how well we can operate within these sets of truths.
Out of the people that I have met who have launched their career or business by just doing, I have always heard the term “paying one’s dues” in regards to learning a certain aspect of business that is usually considered “textbook”.
Out of the people that I have met who have launched their career of business after their MBA program, I have always heard the term “paying one’s dues” in regards to learning to appreciate the experience of the journey.
I guess the point that I would like to make is that the “hustle” is “learning”. It is a necessary process of education. Some of us will learn by doing, by being hands-on, by reading books, by drawing out maps of success, etc… Not one way is better than the other.
We each have our own style of learning and, moreover, we each have our own way of figuring out the best way to bring success into fruition. As long as we are being educated in a purposeful manner, putting our knowledge into action, and learning from our achievements and failures, we are progressing forward in this life. We are hustling.
Again, great discussion topic!
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JK, you are so right on this. I was just talking about this with a coworker of mine. I too am a big advocate of education. I have an MBA, but don’t think that you need a degree to be educated or even successful. There are just too many examples of people who are educated and successful without them. And even with this, we have to define success. Success in money or success in happiness.
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It all comes down to if you know what you want to do.
If what you want to do NEEDS a MBA or degree or something, then that’s cool.
If it doesn’t, then don’t do it.
Of course it’s tough to know what you want sometimes without trial and error.
So a possible solution: Get people to figure out what they want to do (and set steps for it to happen). If they change course, that’s good too. Write out your new plan as soon as you change your idea of what you want to do so you don’t waste any extra time/resources.
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It is an interesting discussion and one that can go in a variety of directions. I am a huge proponent of education and I think that pooh poohing it is a mistake.
We can list a handful of “superstars” who made it without a college degree but they are the exception. You don’t get to be a billionaire based upon a degree or lack thereof. There are bigger reasons than education or a lack thereof for their success.
Sometimes a degree isn’t necessary for success, but it is often a key to getting looked at. So the question I ask is how much time and money will I have to spend to get a degree that will help me get my foot in the door.
If I spend $25k (that # is just an example) to get a position that will pay five times that and put me in a position to grow I see that as a good investment.
From a slightly different perspective I’d also argue that it takes some time for people to really learn who they are and what they want. There are some things that you can’t understand unless you do them.
There are experiences that change you and send you in a different direction than you thought. The point being that I don’t expect most college graduates to know all that much about themselves and what they really want- because they haven’t lived all the much yet.
That is not a knock, just reality.
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Hi JK, you hit on an important point here man! Over here in Europe things are really changing. Employers don’t pay much attention to degrees anymore as EVERYONE has one. (College here is REALLY cheap compared to the U.S.). I have a friend who has 2 master degrees and lost a position to someone with a bachelor degree (he looked him up on linkedin) but a great track record in the field. It’s not about degrees, it’s about attitude, I really believe that. As a business owner I would always pick a street-smart kid with a hustler’s attitude over a fresh out of college kid with no hands-on experience.
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Hey Wim,
We’re on the exact same page here man, albiet from different sides of the pond!
Education is important but doesn’t have to come by way of formal study where we get a little piece of paper proving that we studied. Well, most students that I knew did the mini um in their time in college – so I don’t think that evaluation method works.
So what we’re left with is attitude, drive and the willingness to learn…and continue to learn.
Sorry to hear about your friends that lost his job. That’s terrible. I wish him a smooth rebound.
PEACE
Hey,
I really can understand what your talking about. I am working at a corporate for a temporary position and I am helping a division with their hiring and the degree really doesn’t matter!
Now this may sound a bit weird but a guy with over ten years of experience is way better at everything than an engineer! Now if we just went by qualifications we would have definitely given the no qualification guy a pass; but his resume looked very convincing and we found him way better and he is doing an awesome job.
But then, I wouldn’t go and undermine the value of education all together. It is important but brushing up you skills is just as important as having a good education.
I have been lucky to afford education but then I don’t have a job worthy of that education and that makes all the difference
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Hi Hajra,
Sadly we’re put under the impression that a good education equals a good job, or good career. Even those that get their foot in the door initially because of their education, it doesn’t mean that they’ll have what it takes to move up the ranks.
So, as you said, I also believe that education is important. VERY important in my book – but it doesn’t have to be in the classroom always – it can be on the job too.
It’s a tough economy…I wish you the best in nailing down the position of your dreams in the very near future!
JK,
Terrific read! This is one of those subjects that personally has me conflicted. For me, I started college, left after 18 months, had a wildly successful 20 year run up the corporate ladder, and now successfully growing my small businesses.
The conflict is my kids. I started young so my oldest just graduated from college, one is going to be a junior, and the youngest a freshmen. I really want them to at least have the benefit and experience of college. Well, at least to have that piece of paper.
With the exception of my youngest daughter who wants to become a Physicians Assistant, I don’t know that my other kids have a want or need to go for their masters.
It’s funny how many people I see on Linkedin nowadays that have MBA next to their name…..most unemployed. I admire their grit and hustle for getting it done, but maybe not their reasoning.
Certainly a touchy subject. Awesome to see that you went after it!
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Hey Adam,
Late in my response but I was itching to reply to your comment. You made some points that I often think about too. I have young kids and I would like for them to go to college because I do think it has a lot to offer, if we approach it right. When it comes to grad school – I believe the same. For me, I know a MBA wouldn’t do a lick of good for my career at this point so I have no interest. And if I had an MBA, you’d never see MBA next to my name. Now if I had a Ph.D, we’ll that’s a different story!!! (Dr. Allen)
Yes, this was a touchy one Adam. And that’s my style!!!
Take care
Wow it is sad that times have changed and how people consider what they “think” you need. My mother taught me early on that no one is just going to give you anything without hard work behind it. Sure you will run into some organizations that require “paper” to be allowed to work there, but never the requirement that experience is the main goal. Twenty years ago it was so easy to get a job with “mad” experience and no degree. Now, a lot of people are signing up to get that “paper” to try and get a job based on a requirement that they think they need.
What I realize now it is not just the degree that some organizations require; it’s also age that comes into play. Companies like younger people fresh out of school because they are deemed “hungrier” then those “been there done that people” over 35. As a result, people with no degree think they have to dig deeper into debt and go back to do something they “wish” they had only to be told “they are over qualified”! Now that is BS!
I am knocking a degree or anyone going to school; quite the opposite, but I would rather be street smart, then book smart, or even both. In Silicon Valley it is all about the “paper” with no real income behind it. It is not the Dotcom days anymore when “people” had the power to choose where they wanted to work. My boss has never placed that kind of demand on anyone hired as experience was the valued asset. You can have the degree, but if you do not know apples from oranges, it will not do you a bit of good.
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You MUST be from the bay SONIA!!! You know the true value of street smarts. Some people get it twisted and think it’s a matter of being smart in the streets. It’s that, but it’s also having common sense, understanding how to will and deal, how to communicate and how to be resourceful. School doesn’t teach things things – they come from experience and living life…winning and failing and trial and error.
Your boss has some good sense in seeing experience as a valued asset. So many people see not having a degree as not taking their career seriously – and that’s not the care. I know a lot of people with degrees who don’t care anything about their career.
I have a feeling that we could go on and on on this one forever. In the same direction cause we’re both in agreement.
Have a good weekend Sonia!
I enjoyed the article, JK.
An MBA, or any other degree is often a gatekeeper when there are too many candidates. I have a BA degree piece of paper. My previous employer paid me more with one.
I’ve talked to congressional and senate interns with Political Science degrees who have no clue what the Great Depression was and can’t balance a checkbook. Scary!
From a professional perspective, your vocation is supported with the education you received in the last three years or so. Imagine anyone of us not using what we have learned in the past three years?
An old Will Rogers quote, “Some men learn by reading, others by listening to others, then the rest of us just need to test the electric fence.”
I enjoy learning. I stumble upon a new topic and I want to and do learn it in depth
And I, like everyone on this post, have so much more education than an a ‘degree’. I happen to enjoy learning.
Enjoy.
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Hi Morris,
I LOVED your comment. The entire comment I couldn’t do anything but nod my head in agreement. When you said:
“I’ve talked to congressional and senate interns with Political Science degrees who have no clue what the Great Depression was and can’t balance a checkbook. Scary!”
I thought of so many situations where I came out of school and should have been equipped with certain information – but wasn’t. I had to learn it on my own – the old fashion…which happens to work the best for me!
Enjoy your weekend Morris!
Oddly enough as an MBA graduate, I agree. Having “Hustle” is far more important than a piece of paper, yes the education was good but I could have also spent the same $40k on building an actual business and come out with same experience.
Granted I went in with the intention of learning about building businesses rather than getting a high paying corporate job, so I’m probably an extreme example.
Having the drive and ambition is going to take you a lot further than just a piece of paper, especially when the economy is down. All the things I learned in the MBA program can be learned outside of the classroom….just takes time and dedication to do so.
Thanks for the great post!
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Hello Steve,
Good point as you can have applied that $40k to something else. But it sounds like you entered grad school with definite intentions in mind. As you stated, what you learned can be learned outside of school – but at a cost – TIME! And as we both know, time is often compared to money.
Thanks so much for your value add. I appreciate you stopping by and leaving a comment.
JK: I think you make such a great point that a degree (or the lack of a degree) doesn’t define who you are or what you are capable of. There are successful people both with and without degrees and what is most important is how you choose to take advantage of the opportunities that come your way. Really great point.
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Sibyl,
You stated it perfectly and made it so simple. Thank you!
It’s really not a requirement for success. It can help bring about success, it’s not a requirement.
Best to you – have a good weekend.
JK,
First time visiting your site and what an excellent topic. I’m a business grad, and like many others in my area, I ponder whether an MBA is something I should pursue over and over again.
I’m still leaning away from going for the MBA, for many of the same reasons you shared. You have one more student in the school of HUSTLE.
Bryce
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Hello Bryce,
Thanks for checking the place out and leaving a comment…much appreciated.
I think if you get your MBA or not, you’re doing the right thing in carefully analyzing if it will impact you as you want it to or expect it to. Going in blind is dangerous!
Best luck to you…and Happy Friday of course!
Very interesting post. I got a MBA that at times I think was a waste because it never really furthered my career. However, when I look back I did learn somethings and it may have helped me land jobs by being on my resume. I don’t have a problem with people getting degrees. What I have a problem with, is how it’s really a money-making-affair. My wife is currently in college and they nickle-and-dime her for every little thing! I wrote a recent short post titled, “Gong to College in America is a Scam!” You can see it at http://money-cake.com/2011/06/going-to-college-in-america-is-a-scam/.
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Definitely more a formality then preparation. Like how you said that man. Always into reading your long, in depth posts. I totally align with this. While yea, you need to get your degrees for certain jobs, being a viciously bred (self bred) entrepreneur is the only degree some of us will ever need.
There should be a degree called resourcefulness. If you get that, you’re good!
Luckily, I was able to finish my accountancy course in college. But haven’t really been an accountant since I graduated! LOL The good thing with my course is I can make use the business and marketing side of it to help my dad in his business and also to help me handle our financial aspect. Way back during my junior year in college, I already know that I don’t want to work in a company nor in an auditing firm. What I really want since then is to become a businessman who can help my parents in running our business. Because of my small businesses way back in college plus all my experiences as a freelancer, I must say that I’m still an achiever like others… like my title holder (atty., dr., etc.) friends. Education is indeed important but not really necessary for us to be success. We can be very smart in school but the real challenge to us is the real lessons and tests in life.
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I couldn’t agree with you more! I’ve been trying to tell my mom this for years.
I wish i had my MBA, i respect your view point, but I don’t think an MBA will hurt. I think it can only make one better
I seem to have a lot in common with you Allen. I myself only have an undergrad degree, but I have no intention of getting a masters degree unless it will be relevant in some way in what I do. I have some projects going on and I must say that I am loving the progress, and I do not think I need a masters degree to run them.
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